The NCAA: What Are Our Options
We have taken our time and looked at the things that we think are not working. It is clear that we do not believe the NCAA is by default our best option. When speaking about Folkstyle Wrestling, the Division I Championships are the Apex of that style. There is nothing after that. That is our Super Bowl and World Series so to speak.
So in reality an organization that has no interest whatsoever in the advancement of our sport dictates things. We have the NWCA that does everything in its power to advance our sport, but at the end of the day they are also at the mercy of the NCAA.
USA Wrestling is the governing body of our sport, but also has little impact or influence on what the NCAA does or does not do.
We are going to give a certain perspective in this segment. We will then follow it up with the second part and provide some more in-depth details. Our goal here is to get the general idea out there and let you all applaud, yell and/or discuss.
Imagine a National College Championship that allowed an opportunity for every wrestler in college a chance to become the National College Champion. Imagine the NWCA, NCWA, USA Wrestling and NUWAY all working as one to provide the best opportunity and best experiences for both the fans and the athletes. Imagine a college staff working with their athletes all year around all the way through the Freestyle and Greco seasons. In our opinion that would be some kind of cool.
What if we could have a board that governed College wrestling that was made up of the organization mentioned above? Where the people making the decisions actually cared about the advancement of our sport and whose mission was to promote college wrestling and education.
We know we are dreaming of a utopian wrestling community, but why not?
What if we told you that we believe the general infrastructure to pull this off already exists. We have an organization that has worked tirelessly, without much fanfare? That organization would be the NCWA. We are not going to go into a ton of detail in this segment as we will dive much deeper in our follow up. We will say that they have built a great foundation for what could someday serve as a real solution to the current woes we have in college wrestling. Also, all of these groups have a lot of experience running large scale national championship type of events.
We know that there are numerous barriers and numerous people who either think this could never happen or simply just do not want to leave the NCAA. That is fine and we can respect those view points. If the things that have happened this year alone has not got your attention or made you wonder about the future or our sport on the college level, then we just assume nothing will ever change your mind. With that said, feel free to express your opinions in the comments section.
Tune in next week as we do a deep dive into what we have suggested today.
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I have a question before I make a comment. Is it possible for 1 sport to leave the NCAA and the other activities can remain? Or does this mean the school must completely leave the NCAA in all sports?
Thank you
Wow! Powerful stuff. Looking forward to the next installment of this discussion.
Lou,
Yes it is possible.
Well done! Completely outside of the box. Change is hard, so my initial reaction is — no way, never happen. But who would have thought that a coach would get a call after winning a third national title telling him that the program would be dropped. Lesson — be proactive. For now this is all talk, but at the very least, it’s gotten me to look up the NCWA. NCWA is much bigger than I had thought.
V,
I think you are correct in your thinking b/c you are looking at the future of the sport & assessing what is actually being done to create.
If you do not establish AN IDEAL SCENE then there is NO WAY you can actually know how far of a departure the EXISTING SCENE is from the future & you will not know what to do in order to get there either.
Change on really takes palce when you shoot for ground higher then you can imagine. Utopia? People think it is a BAD WORD b/c it is “unrealistic” but to me, that is only because those folks dont’ dare to imagine or confront the fact that someone has a VESTED INTEREST in maintaining the status quo. Look forward to more!
NCWA….
We want to leave the NCAA to go to the NCWA which is basically a club league? Really???
Who is “we” Fernando?
You want to stay in the NCAA which is basically a football/basketball is all that matters association? Oh and don’t forget beholden to Title IX where wrestling programs are the first to go association?
coachknepper beat me to the punch….
Being one of the few who has been involved with the NCWA from the begining I can speak from experience….. The NCWA is only getting stronger and stronger… our numbers are going, while others are getting smaller and smaller… It is only a matter of time before the leadership of the NCWA will be proven correct and will be praised for saving college wrestling…
While I do not like the way Wrestling programs struggle to survive in the NCAA. It cannot be denied that DI football and basketball create enough revenue to allow the NCAA to pay for the expense of all the other championship it hosts. That includes the travel and lodging expenses of all the teams. Do not think that Universities will start picking up the tabs for that.
Originally the NCWA was supposed to help create pressure for the reinstitution of VARSITY wrestling programs. I have noticed of late that the NCWA has started to position itself as an alternative to VARSITY programs. However, the NCWA is not in a position to offer the same exposure as the NCAA, which has been successful in increasing coverage of wrestling each year as of late(i.e. ESPN coverage). As revenue from the DI tournament continues to increase, so will the exposure for our sport. Despite some set backs by narrow minded college administrators, the state of NCAA wrestling is improving. There is no need to panic.
@Fernando,
To call the NCWA a “club league” is an insult to the caliber of wrestling exhibited at the national level of this association. The majority of teams in the NCWA are varsity programs at their college, and as far as I’m concerned, work harder than most of the NCAA teams on campus. We crush D3 and D2 teams on a regular basis in dual meets, so to call us a “club” team is truly insulting.
Plus, we’re not bound to title ix
Unbelievable at best!
To think for one moment that the NWCA, in all arrogance, can put itself on the level of the NCAA….and now I am speaking from a talent level.
The NWCA is no different than an Intramural squad of wannabees in comparison to specifically Div. I Wrestling.
Say it like it is and quit puffing up your chest as if you have a clue.
This article is ridiculous and a total embarrassment to the sport of wrestling at the highest level collegiately.
If you could break through Division I and a measure of Division II in talent, I will concede one or two….but to think you can hop up at the Division I level and compete….you haven’t even earned a spot at the adult table yet….stay with the kids.
unreal.
Great idea. Need better articulation of WIIFM than “way cool”. Is the overall objective to save the sport/grow the sport/both/improve international competitiveness/all the above? End point helps guide interim steps and participants.
GOOD LUCK.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the college changes its affiliation from NCAA to NCWA it will still need to comply with Title IX.
However, if the University drops wrestling and a club springs up in its place, then no Title IX worries. Title IX is a threat only to University sponsored activities which can lead to legal action versus the University.
It will depend on where the money is coming from… If the school is the only funding source(i.e. athletics) then it could still be an issue for them… If they money comes from students fees that the students have input on how it is spent then title ix should not be an issue… most schools use title ix an an excuse when it is really about funding Big ticket sports like basketball and football….
Lastly the NCWA does not care where you get your funding from as long as the school recongizes your program… you can be privately funded by one person and it would not matter to the NCWA….
FoxesFan, Correct…Kind Of…But lets think this through. If a School Structures the Wrestling program outside the Athletic Dept. say as a part of Student Government or Club Sports, then even though the University fully supports the Program, ie. paid coaches, budgets for travel, equipment etc. Even gives Scholarships, then there are no title IX issues, since Student government by its nature is already proportional. All students are members. Proportionality solved.
Here’s some more food for thought for those who like to think out of the box in support of our sport. Doesn’t Title 9 cease to apply if a school stops accepting federal funding? Accepting students who have student loans apparently doesn’t suffice for binding a university that otherwise is liberated from federal funding, right?
Anyhow, the governments’ money well’s drying up, as http://www.USDebtClock.org shows. Research dollars will become ridiculously scarce as baby-boomers continue retiring and demanding entitlement payments. As “stress is the mother of innovation,” why can’t academic research be done merely through the offering of competitive prizes offered by entities like http://www.XPrize.org (which already gets some funding from http://www.Challenge.gov )? Such prizes could be won by private entities that are merely “affiliated with” universities. That way the research can still transpire, but not at the expense of schools’ autonomy. By weaning our colleges & universities from federal funding, more of them can finally add wrestling too, without Title 9: Proportionality crushing it. I’ve heard that Michigan’s Hillsdale College doesn’t accept federal funding. I wonder what their experience has been like?
The NCWA is nothing more than a club league with little clout with their schools. The NCWA has no brand name and no exposure. This is something the NCAA does have and is needed for our sport to grow.
Totally disagree with this. Coach could you list all the benefits we currently have due to the NCAA that could not be replaced?
Some people are just stuck in “the way it has always been” and do not want to wake up to the fact that in a short time the NCWA has done more for college wrestling than the ncaa has in that same time frame…. if you are looking for clout and exposure just wait it is coming…. don’t be mad if you are left out in the cold for not supporting the NCWA now….
What kind of television contract can the NCWA get? ESPN prime time? I highly doubt it.
Karim, can you give me some proof that the club teams crush D 2 and D 3 teams on a regular basis?
Coach A, you say the NCAA is getting smaller and smaller but D 2 and 3 continue to grow, and the NAIA and even the NJCAA grows. Only D I has been losing schools. So you are wrong.
Fernando I respect your position.
Please answer me all the benefits we get from the NCAA. If you only argument is ESPN and TV then I ask you how has that helped our sport? Over the past 3-4 years ESPN has provided more and more coverage as has Big 10 Network. Yet the rate at which we lose programs seems to be increasing. So I am confused as to why people think the NCAA is where we need to be.
Fernando,
show me the numbers that D2& 3 and naia, njcaa are growing…. have they add a few teams….Yes, I will admit that…. but they lost them as well so it is a wash….no real growth…. Has the NCWA gone from 24 schools to over 160 since 1997….. Yes… That is real growth….. This year alone the NCWA looks to be adding 29 school( 12 NCWA D1 programs, 16 NCWA D2 provional programs, 1 NCWA D2….
The 16 NCWA D2 programs new schools adding/or bringing back wrestling, can the ncaa/naia/njcaa say that…
The NAIA has done more for wrestling than any other division in the last 10 years period! The list of NAIA schools that have hired coaches and offered scholarships…..invested in the sport, far exceeds anything that NCAA or NWCA have done.
Brad
First dont confuse NCWA with NWCA.
Second NCWA has never tried to keep programs from reentering the NCAA or NAIA or JUCO systems. Nor has the NCWA ever tried to cannobolize schools away from their current associations. It was created solely to keep wrestling alive on campuses across the country where it would have disappeared otherwise.
The advatnage the NCWA promotes is that it is the only collegiate association that is dedicated to wrestling only – it’s entire focus is on wrestling. Can any other collegiate associations say the same? Or are they fixated on their “revenue” sports so they can find a way to keep wrestling alive within their a ssociations?
As for talent level, no one in the NCWA will say that as a whole its wrestlers are of the caliber of the NCAA’s D-I or D-II top 25 teams. There are some NCWA wrestlers who are D-I and D-II caliber, who do wrestle there because of their college choice. Yet they get to continue their wrestling career because of the NCWA’s involvement on their campus.
IMO, it is arrogant for the die-hard NCAA followers to not even consider an alternate route to promote the sport that would benefit all schools and not just the elite top 20 or so.
Remember, pride comes before the fall.
I noticed that the U of Michigan and Ohio State have D2 NCWA teams. How does that work, to have both an NCAA D1 wrestling team and a NCWA D2 wrestling Team at the same campus?
Fernando:
Here are the matches between NCWA schools against NCAA-D1/D2/D3/NAIA/NJCAA this past year. Note this doesn’t include ANY matches of Southern Illinois-Edwardsville (who is a NCWA member transitioning from NCAA-D2 to NCAA-D1).
The Apprentice School 29 v Morrisville State College 8 10/30/2010
University of Scranton 9 v The Apprentice School 38 10/30/2010
Penn State University – DuBois 18 v Morrisville State 30 10/30/10
Grand Valley State University 24 v Niagara Community College 20 11/12/10
Grand Valley State University 39 v Alfred State CC 12 11/12/10
Lincoln College 23 v Oakland University 19 11/12/2010
Oakland University 40 v Jamestown CC 16 11/12/10
United States Military Academy Prep 34 v Gloucester County College 12 11/17/10
Thaddeus Stevens 27 v Williamson School of Mechanical Trades 15 11/17/10
University of Central Florida 12 v Sierra College (California) 37 11/19/10 (Sierra travelled to UCF…they must be high on intramurals, huh?)
The Apprentice School 21 v Sierra College (California) 27 11/19/10
Penn State University – DuBois 15 v Ohio Valley University 27 11/20/2010
Oakland University 27 v Manchester College 23 11/20/10
Oakland University 6 v Olivet College 35 11/20/10
Grand Valley State University 26 v Trine 19 11/20/10
Sacramento City College 39 v San Jose State University 9 11/17/10
San Jose State University 45 v San Joaquin Delta College 12 11/17/10
Mott Community College 29 v Olivet B 15 12/5/10
Penn State University – DuBois 25 v Alfred State 22 12/3/10
Penn State University – DuBois 6 v Gannon Univ. 38 12/8/10
Grand Valley State University 38 v Olivet College 6 12/12/10
Menlo 18 v California Baptist University 21 12/17/10
University of Central Florida 21 v Lakeland College (WI) 22 12/19/2010
University of Central Florida 57 v Concordia (WI) 0 12/19/2010
University of Central Florida 15 v Luther College 26 12/19/2010
University of Central Florida 21 v #2 Elmurst 19 12/19/2010
Morningside (IA) 27 v California Baptist University 17 12/20/10
#1 Wartburg College (IA) 40 v California Baptist University 7 12/20/10
#3 Coe College (IA) 32 v California Baptist University 12 12/20/10
Grand View University 12 v California Baptist University 24 12/20/10
The Apprentice School 16 v York College (PA) 30 1/7/2011
The Apprentice School 15 v Johns Hopkins 25 1/7/2011
The Apprentice School 22 v St. Andrews 23 1/7/2011
Grand Valley State University 35 v Muskegon Community College 6 01/08/11
Grand Valley State University 27 v Olivet College 15 01/08/11
East Tennessee State University 33 v Spartanburg Methodist 27 1/14/11
NAIA All-Americans 23 v NCWA All-Americans 15 1/15/11
Ouachita Baptist 25 v Marion Military Institute 25 01/15/11
Nebraksa-Kearney 37 v Marion Military Institute 6 01/15/11
Wayland Baptist 7 v Marion Military Institute 42 01/15/11
West Chester University 27 v Oneota College 21 1/8/11
West Chester University 12 v Messiah College 38 1/8/11
West Chester University 33 v Wisconsin Whitewater 19 1/8/11
East Tennessee State University 33 v Spartanburg Methodist 27 1/14/11
Marion Military Institute 32 v Darton College 10 01/21/11
Spartanburg Methodist 26 v East Tennessee State University 28 1/25/11
St Andrews 42 v East Tennessee State University 15 1/25/11
Penn State – New Kensington 12 v West Virginia Tech 21 1/29/11
Penn State – New Kensington 6 v Lake Erie College 45 1/29/11
Williamson School of Mechanical Trades 6 v Middlesex CC 36 01/29/2011
Williamson School of Mechanical Trades 12 v Bergen CC 36 01/29/2011
Springield Tech CC 24 v SUNY / Albany 24 1/30/11
United States Air Force Academy Prep 21 v Northwest Tech 15 1/27/11
Penn State University – DuBois 6 v Thiel College 48 01/22/11
Penn State University – DuBois 21 v Mercyhurst NE 28 01/22/11
Penn State University – DuBois 12 v Baldwin Wallace 28 01/22/11
Oakland University 37 v Olivet 18 12/5/10
Tiffin University 29 v Oakland University 15 1/29/11
Douglas College 15 v Embry Riddle Aeronautical University 36 2/4/11
Northland International University 24 v Maranatha 36 2/8/2011
Simon Fraser 15 v Douglas College 11 02/9/2011
Mott Community College 26 v Tiffen University Div 2 30 2/11/2011
The Apprentice School 36 v Washington & Lee 9 2/12/11
The Apprentice School 36 v St. Andrews Presbyterian 11 2/19/11
Tiffin University 51 v Saginaw Valley State University 0 02/19/2011
Here was SIU-Edwardsville’s Duals (real cream-puff schedule). SIU-E finished 4th in NCWA.
Cornell College 39 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 6 11/19/10
Coe College 37 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 6 11/19/10
Iowa Central 23 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 15 11/19/10
Northern State University 21 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 18 12/12/10
South Dakota State University 12 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 18 12/12/10
Findlay 26 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 18 12/19/10
Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 0 v Northwestern University 51 12/19/10
University of Iowa 49 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 0 01/07/11
Gardner-Webb 17 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 21 01/09/11
Indiana University 45 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 0 01/09/11
Cleveland State 31 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 7 01/09/11
Chattanooga 35 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 10 01/15/11
University of Missouri 48 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 0 01/15/11
University of Illinois 50 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 0 01/21/11
Tiffin University 12 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 21 01/29/11
Eastern Michicgan 40 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 9 01/29/11
University of Central Missouri 15 v Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 21 02/08/11
Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville 15 v Truman State University 27 02/17/11
Not to mention all of the placements by individuals in opens such as The Citadel, Shorter, Patriot, and on and on and on…
Maybe do a little research before attacking the organization. Is the NCWA on par with NCAA-D1? Hell no…no one has ever suggested that. What is being suggested is that the NCWA and counterparts such as NWCA, USA, and NUWAY may be better set up to GOVERN collegiate wrestling.
For the record, the top-3 NAIA teams from last year’s championship will be competing in the NCWA National Championship: Notre Dame (OH), Lindenwood, and McKendree plus Simon Fraser and West Virginia Tech.
You are so far off missing the point sorry. It is not about which group is better on the mat. It is about having an organization that promotes the sport and how we can grow not decline. What these scores have to do with anything is beyond my understanding. Either you mis-read what we are trying to say or we did not make it clear enough. Hopefully the next segment will shed some light.
divided we shall fall
Viratas,
How would the Combination of USA Wrestling, Natl Wrestling Coaches Assoc, NUWAY and NCWA
Look…. Are there too many ego’s involved? do these groups even communicate with each other? Is this a bigger can of worms than the NCAA? Lots of Questions here in my mind
AJ,
I will be addressing that in the next segment(s)
coachknepper,
Those results are pretty hit and miss. Hardly dominating like someone else said.
Viratas, do you see mens swimming and track and other mens sports that have been hurt by title 9 trying to leave and start their own organization?
Coach A. Great, you grow, and the quality sucks. It’s an inferior product. Big deal. You add crap to more crap. The top ten teams in the club league are good, (not counting the ones who are just transitioning)but after that its horrible.
No matter how much u polish a turd, it’s still a turd.
I’m not sure why you blame the NCAA. They are just a governing body. Blame the schools, blame Title 9.
Everyone . . . stay on topic, please. Viratas is leading a completely outside the box, off the radar discussion here. There is no need for turf wars, or defending any present status quo. The goal here,IMO is to be proactive in the face of an ever growing disrespect by NCAA institutions, and possibly the NCAA administration. Please feel free to correct me if I’m off base.
Let’s make this discussion for the good of the sport.
Fernando, as I said I respect your position, but I do not think you and are are talking about the same things. Maybe when I am done it will make more sense and then we can discuss in more detail. Like I said I was pretty vague in the teaser so that is partly my fault.
Foxes, yes and you get where I am going with this.
Ferando,
You are fooling yourself if you do not think there is crap in the other associations as well, there are lots of crappy teams in every association beyond the top 20… and if you just want to worry about those top 20 in the ncaa do worry that is all that is going to be left in a few years…. then what… you going to watch the same 20 school wrestle each other every weekend and complain that something should be done…. It is being done….The NCWA is saving college wrestling if you like it or not….
Viratas,
I think Knepper was trying to prove that the NCWA is a competitive assocaition that can wrestle witht the best of them… may not win them all but not afraid to take on the “all-might” ncaa.
I understand his frustration, he has been envolved with the NCWA almost as long as I have and it getting tiring when some people not us without even coming to our nationals and seeing from themselves how great of an organization that we have.
Thank you for thinking outside the box, I am really looking forward to what is in the next part…
Coach A,
How is the club org. saving college wrestling?
You keep saying it is saving it, but how so? Don’t tell me because it’s the number of teams. Some of those teams have 2 or 3 guys. Wonderful.
The problem with discussing how things could be different is that people tend to imagine a future in which one thing changes, and everything else remains as it is now.
How competitive NCWA teams are presently is not the point. The key thing is the framework the NCWA can provide. NCAA wrestling is in decline, and the decline has not culled the weakest programs and stopped, as many had hoped. If the situation continues to erode, we will eventually reach a crisis, and it’s difficult to build a lifeboat once you’re already treading water.
The DI tournament today is indeed economically significant. To see where economic pressure takes us: imagine the minimal set of teams needed to keep the event at roughly the same quality. The other teams are a needless expense. If this is the economic force preserving college wrestling, we should expect to see all the “unnecessary” teams disappear as the system moves toward a more efficient state.
That’s a lot more programs to lose. But even then, we may not reach a stable state, if the dramatically reduced “carrying capacity” at the college level starts to hurt us at the high school level.
The way I see it, a backup plan is a necessary. I have plenty of complaints about the NCAA, but even so I would be strongly disinclined to consider leaving if our future there seemed secure. But the headlock which would have been reckless at the beginning of a match may be the best option when you’re losing late in the match.
Let’s say disaster strikes: the NCAA simply drops wrestling altogether tomorrow. (It won’t, of course, but never mind that for now.)
Is there any reason to think that a national collegiate championship which featured Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State, Minnesota, and our other top programs would no longer draw a crowd because the name “NCAA” was no longer attached? In fact, I think our sport benefits less from such branding than most. We do not attract general sports fans by virtue of being an NCAA sport; wrestling fans are wrestling fans, and know what interests them.
Or should we think that these programs would no longer produce exceptional wrestlers?
And why should we not be able to attract media attention, functioning independently? It’s not as if the NCAA spends money earned from other sports on the promotion of wrestling.
That’s not to say everything would work out for the best; just that there may be opportunity. Outside the NCAA, we might not have to fight Title IX, and we’d be free to make our own rules for the benefit of the sport. Such gains would by no means justify putting everything we have now at risk. But since everything we have now is at risk, despite our efforts, we’d might as well consider the possibilities.
Only 13 teams have 4 or less wrestlers…. over 70 teams have over 10 wrestlers…. Yes it in the numbers…. I know you cannot see all the teams rosters at once like I can so if you like a break down of temams sizes I would be happy to send it to you on Tuesday….However I do not think that will change your mind….have you ever been you our championships… or tournaments… you keep commenting on the association but have you even seen the product????
THis was posted by EngineerLehigh over on the Wrestling Report:
The only thing that NCAA offers for wrestlers is a chance for students to gain an education on athletic scholarship. All other benefits have been eclipsed by wrestling clubs/training programs that have very competitive facilities and coaches. In fact, the future of wrestling will be regionally on who can endow a non-profit training center and sponsor Olympic caliber athletes.
Is there still a place for folkstyle, NCAA wrestling, absolutely, but in the future I see NCAA wrestling as 130 or less scholarship programs (of varying amounts and dediction to the sport), elimination of NCAA Division 2 and non-scholarship schools Division III with less than 200 programs. I believe NCAA runs good Individual Tournament, but has lousy perspective on team wrestling and team championship. It has failed to capture the upside of MMA and connection to wrestling to secure more television of NCAA events, but Big 10 Networks and other conference have.
I think in the future there will be 10 behemoths of college wrestling producing most of the All-Americans and the best freestyle athlete who later go to international circut. The other 200 or so programs will be there for the occassional All-American and production of an international athlete and just for offering the love of the sport.
Who will be the 10 strong?
EIWA – Cornell and Lehigh, both have alumni who give to NCAA program and freestyle club wrestling.
MAC – Central Michigan will continue to attract midwest athletes
Colonial – none
Southern – none
Big 12 – Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Iowa State
Big 10 – Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State, Minnesota
West – none
Big 10 – Boise State like Central Michigan will continue to attract far west wrestlers.
These programs show the ability to consistently raise money and attract the best athletes. It does not mean a program with the right coach cannot have an impact: Edinboro under Flynn, American under Cody and currently I would put Bucknell and Bloomsburg into that category of coaches whose quest for excellence are having an impact. How sustainable is it both in recruiting and money raising is to be seen.
For the sport to thrive, it is important that more programs and freestyle training centers be developed in south (Florida and Texas) and west (California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Utah). If not, I could see a future where NCAA Presidents say the heck with it and there are less than 100 scholarship programs and less than 100 non-scholarship programs of which 80% are in Midwest or East.
My concern is that wrestling will become the reverse of Volleyball & Lacrosse. Meaning that those are what were basically Regional sports that have done a lot to become National. For years the only teams that ever even qualified for the NCAA Final Four in Volleyball were California teams. Penn State lead the way in changing that & the NCAA apparently with it as well.
Lacrosse well still predominantly a Northeastern sport has spread to the Midwest over the years & some out west.
The way it is now is that wrestling is pretty much a Midwestern sport & growing smaller year by year. This is why I have felt that a surge from Penn State & Cornell has been very good for the sport in addition to being a fan.
If we don’t change something then this will be the story of the Camel in the tent: The camel asks the Sultan to come in the tent because it is cold out . The Sultan says NO WAY. Then the camel asks if he can put his nose in & the Sultan says Well, ok but nothing else. So the Camel inches his way into the tent & by the end of the story the Camel IS in the tent & the Sultan is out in the cold. Wrestling is inching it’s way out of the tent. Soon Wrestling could look like Water Polo. Did you know that Water Polo was an NCAA sponsored Championship? If you didn’t know that it is because NO ONE outside of California plays it.
Lacrosse has indeed become a less regional sport. The NCAA D-1 Final Four is this weekend and one of the teams still playing is the University of Denver, which didn’t even have a team a decade ago. There’s an intriguing story behind their success, which is featured here:
insidetexaswrestling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=6020
Lacrosse isn’t as vulnerable as wrestling is to Title IX pressures, though, because women play lacrosse more readily than they wrestle. If leaving the NCAA is necessary to get out from under the weight of Title IX once and for all, why shouldn’t we?
Some thoughts.
First of all men’s lacrosse IS subject to title ix pressures, all you have to do is compare the number of men’s and women’s programs to the number of high school participants. Women’s lacrosse is approaching 90 Div I programs. Men’s lacrosse has shown small growth.
The concept that schools will not accept federal funding, and thus be free of title ix constraints, is probably not viable. If a school accepts veterans on the GI Bill, federally funded student loans, federal research money, etc., they are in the clutches of title ix. Some small, more church-centered schools might be able to do without federal money, otherwise the idea is a non-starter.
Div I wrestling will probably look a lot like men’s gymnastics in a few years. A nucleus of programs that are endowed or in which wrestling fits into the culture of the school (Iowa, Okla State, Navy, Air Force, North Carolina, Lehigh, etc.) Those that think title ix only hurts wrestling have to look outside of the sport. All men’s sports have been impacted, yes even football.
Going club will take us back to a pure amateur level, but we will lose the ability of college coaches to earn a decent salary by doing so. Or athletes to get some scholarship money to continue to compete. Unlikely a club coach will earn $80,000 to $100,000.
Losing Div I status will further marginalize wrestling. Casual fans and alumni won’t follow the sport, and the international styles are now a disaster from an interest perspective. Though that is where we are likely headed.
Keep in mind that the the title ix zealots are now targeting high school sports. That’s been coming for years but the men’s sports communities have done next to nothing to fight it.
My mistake, there are over 90 women’s Div I lacrosse teams, with more on the way. And currently about 61 men’s teams, though Univ of Michigan announced they are adding a men’s team.
Steve, The outside the box thinking being discussed here, is that if wrestling builds programs outside of the NCAA and, if Title IX is an issue, Outside the athletic department, then there ARE more openings for growth, funding, scholarships, and high coaching salaries. No question there are many negatives as well. But the status quo with the NCAA is looking like certain disaster over the next 20 years.
To function within the University system, but outside the NCAA & potentially outside the athletic department would require that head coaches be more business minded, They may need to look for new sources of revenue. But saying coaches will make less, I believe, is wrong direction thinking. I see coaches making more. Why shouldn’t our coaches make 100, 200 or $300, 000 a year If they build a program with support from the school, community, business and alumni. Simply letting the alumni loose to contribute to the wrestling program will explode dollars. Allowing business to give scholarships or give athletes jobs would no longer be taboo. Unleashing the wrestling community from the shackles of NCAA rules created to control football, basketball or baseball could make a dynamic change in the future of wrestling at all levels.
At the Div I level, if you are outside of the NCAA you ARE outside of the athletic department.
True that title ix wouldn’t be an issue then, but alumni and businesses can already contribute to programs but only a handful currently get large levels of support. We’ve undergone program losses for nearly three decades and there hasn’t been an explosion of funding. Some schools have been fortunate: Lehigh in the 1990s, Iowa when Mr. Carver gave them what was a lot of money in the 1970s, Cornell of course, but these are more the exception than the rule.
I agree that we are likely headed toward a club level sport with a handful of college programs left. I just don’t see how there is going to be significant wages for club coaches.
The same NCAA rules that supposedly shackle wrestling apply to lacrosse, track, tennis, swimming, etc., in addition to football and basketball. Most baseball programs are non-revenue. Though many of those men’s sports are suffering like wrestling is.
Steve, It seems you have some great experience in college athletics and you are probably right on typical DI Structures Currently. That is… if you are “outside of the NCAA you ARE outside” of the Athletic Department. But the Discussion and overall Question is Why? Some schools have an Athletic Department that supports and or funds Non-NCAA Sports, and it seems to work well. Granted, most of these are small schools, but what rule prevents an Athletic Department from funding a Rifle Club, Crew Club or Wrestling Club / Team if they are not a member of the NCAA. I think it’s just School Policy… or is there an NCAA DI rule I am unaware of?
I’ve been on the Athletic Council for a major Div I school, as well as coaching selection committees, Hall of Fame Selections, President of a booster group, etc. Very close to college wrestling for I guess 35 years now.
At the Div I level, if the department were to sponsor a club team that would diminish the funds available for actual Div I teams. Ain’t going to happen in this economy. There are liability, academic support, salaries, athletic training/medical costs, administrative and compliance oversight, not to mention impacts on gender quotas for an officially sponsored group.
From my experience most club teams are sponsored by the actual university, usually through recreation and/or student fees. There are some VERY sophisticated club programs around in different sports at various schools. UMBC Wrestling is one. Another example is UC Santa Barbara Women’s Lacrosse.
Perhaps at the Div III and NAIA levels it can happen. But again those schools don’t have to funding and many are enrollment driven.
Steve,
Great Points. I appreciate your council and input on this issue. Having input from someone in the know certainly helps elevate the discussion. So.. If a “Club” team is under the authority of the Athletic Department, then it would count against their Title IX #’s? if it is chartered in another department of the university then it would relieve the Athletic department of both the funding issue and the Title IX issue is that what I hear you saying?
Steve,
Great input, I hope over the next 4 installments to show you how if could be reasonable and something we could actual sustain.
Who’s the team to beat for the national title this year?